Ouch!

Charlie the Far Left Candidate who can't even be trusted to tell the people he seeks to represent the truth.

Charlie has been denying he supports same sex marriage for months...But he does. I find it sad and disappointing that the only way voters of the district find out what Charlie really supports is if he is hounded on a radio show to answer or is given pictorial evidence of his existing opinion.

Shame on you Charlie, "Bob" and Lee. You all know where McClintock stands on every issue- he is clear and upfront with everyone even if they disagree. Charlie is nothing but a Liberal Liar who has to hide what he believes and supports from the voters.

Why would anyone vote for a pandering liar like Charlie- oh, they are not- that is why he is loosing.

In case you don’t recall here are Charlie’s recent lies and distortions…

1) Supporting Barrack Obama- said he had not chosen who to support to Politico. The Next day after being confronted with pictorial evidence he admits to Roll Call he does support Obama.

2) Supporting expanding oil drilling- Charlie tried to fool people by saying he supported expanding oil drilling off the coast. But once again, when confronted by his own words he only supports drilling in exiting approved off shore drilling areas (or 3%).

3) Supporting traditional marriage- Charlie claimed to support on his website that he supports traditional marriage “In Charlie’s family tradition, marriage is religious ceremony between a man and a woman”- But finally confronted by voters he admits he supports gay marriage.

4) Charlie sends a mailer with a Quote from CalTax against McClintock- However CalTax has sent a letter to Charlie telling him they never said that- Charlie wont apologize and set the record straight- He knows that quote is false.

5) Charlie said he was not in uniform supporting at the hanging of a US Soldier in Effigy- Pictorial and video evidence now shows clearly he was in HIS BDU jacket and cover- he was in his uniform.

6) Charlie says he supports the Second Amendment- But Charlie is a Member of the ACLU who opposes the NRA every time on gun rights. The ACLU thought the Heller Court opinion was wrong and dangerous- Gun rights groups celebrated. (Don’t give me the crap about you own guns- your friend Sean Penn has a CCW permit but doesn’t think I have the right to own a gun- you Fraud!)

7) Charlie says he does not support Cindy Sheehan or Code Pink- Time and Time again he has showed up to support them at their anti-war rallies. He even hugged Cindy Sheehan and gave her a standing ovation at a speech in Sacramento.

Charlie you are nothing but an Ultra-Liberal Liar!

MONEY LAUNDERING?

THIS IS ADDRESSED TO JOHN STOOS.

Under the gun of the FEC, Team McClintock goes into panic mode circa September 2008. It does a panic dump into safe havens that are incestuously close to his campaign and calls it "charity"

John, $20,000 usd were dumped into your lap under the rubric, Cherish California Children. To call your website smoke and mirrors would be an upgrade. No directory of organization. No names of principals of this organization PERIOD. Under DONATIONS, there is a mail drop address in Sacramento. Googling reveals it is yours and another dude.

Why the lack of transparency? I have never seen another so called non-profit with such a bare bones website.

Where can I find the financials? Who audits your financials. Why the lack of transparency?

What have you done with the money and where can I get an independent accounting that doesn't have your finger print on it?

Lee Reed

Lee,

Once again you are pretty bold with the accusations: Cherish is a 501c3 organization that has been around since the mid 1990's. It is on file with both the IRS and the Franchise Tax board. It's mission is to support ProLife organizations across the county and the reason you don't see a lot of activities is because we specialize in just one: The "Before You Choose" brochures that are featured on our web site that is apparently not up to your standards!

Because of generous donations from folks like Senator McClintock and some printers we can offer them free of charge to anyone doing sidewalk counseling in front of an abortion clinics [it was designed for that purpose] or educational programs in schools and churches.

With the current 40 Days for Life campaign going on across the country we are being kept very busy on that front!

I know that is not what you wanted to hear, but I hope it helps!

John

AGAIN THE CONDENSENSION

I know what your purported mission is and the brochures. But you completely avoided:

"No directory of organization. No names of principals of this organization PERIOD. Under DONATIONS, there is a mail drop address in Sacramento. Googling reveals it is yours and another dude.

Why the lack of transparency? I have never seen another so called non-profit with such a bare bones website.

Where can I find the financials? Who audits your financials. Why the lack of transparency?

What have you done with the money and where can I get an independent accounting that doesn't have your finger print on it?"

Time for some answers...Time for some transparency.

Lee Reed

btw, you refer to McClintock's generosity. You call panicking when confronted by the FEC about the money in his 2010 account and facing fines "generosity?" Get real...

Lee Reed

FINANCIAL RECORDS PLEASE

Failure to file required returns such as Form 990 (Return of Organization Exempt From Income Tax) may result in monetary fines of up to $250,000 per year. Exempt or political organizations (excluding churches or similar religious entities) must make their returns, reports, notices, and exempt applications available for public inspection.

The exempt organization filed IRS Form 990 (or similar such public record as the Form 990-EZ or Form 990-PF) are generally available for public inspection and photocopying at the offices of the exempt organization, through a written request and payment for photocopies by mail from the exempt organization, or through a direct Form 4506-A Request for Public Inspection or Copy or Political Organization IRS Form request to the IRS of the exempt organization filing of Form 990 for the past three tax years. The Form 4506-A also allows the public inspection and/or photocopying access to Form 1023 Application for Recognition of Exemption or Form 1024, Form 8871 Political Organization Notice of Section 527 Status, and Form 8872 Political Organization Report of Contribution and Expenditures.

Failure to timely file such returns and to make other specific information available to the public is also prohibited

Leehog - take a deep breath and go to the AG's website - I use it to research potential non-profit clients.

Lee,

Sorry you just can't understand the simple things in life: We have a simple mission and try to do it well. We print and ship brochures. No salaries, no perks no vacations: Been that way for over 15 years without a single complaint from any of our donors.

If you don't like what we do or trust me to do what I say, then it is a free country and you don't have to donate!

John

PS: I don't think we have filed a form 990 since the 90's because they are only required if you have more that $25K in donation in a single year. Sorry to disappoint yet again.

"Bob" and Lee,

Care to address the FACT that your boy Charlie has intentionally LIED to voters over and over again?

Why did Charlie not simply say where he stands on the issues? Why does he constantly lie to me and the rest of the 4th CD voters?

He has obviously always opposed prop 8 and supported Gay Marriage (as evidenced by his carefully crafted statement on his website). Do "We the People" not deserve the truth from our elected officials.

Charlie often quotes the Air Force Code...Too bad he fails to follow it on a daily basis.

("Bob" and Lee- because you have a hard time with Plain English like Charlie- I am calling Him a LIAR- and you by extension)

THE CONDENCENSION CONTINUES

John Stoos said:
Lee,

Sorry you just can't understand the simple things in life: We have a simple mission and try to do it well. We print and ship brochures. No salaries, no perks no vacations: Been that way for over 15 years without a single complaint from any of our donors.

If you don't like what we do or trust me to do what I say, then it is a free country and you don't have to donate!

John

PS: I don't think we have filed a form 990 since the 90's because they are only required if you have more that $25K in donation in a single year. Sorry to disappoint yet again.

October 11, 2008 8:42 PM_________________________________________________________________

What you are telling me is that CHERISH has never raised more that 25K in one year. And yet it has existed since the 90's. And no one has complained. No donors that is.

Money dribbles in. Sometimes it gushes in as in the case of McClintock in a panic dumping 20K at one time. So there is no book keeping. How is anyone who is interested in the integrity of campaign financing to know where the money ends up? Has CHERISH contributed to pushing prop 4 and prop 8? Who is to know one way or the other.

No external accounting. No nothing. A cosy relationship with someone running for a federal office. A real cosy relationship...

What a deal...

Lee

BTW, this is just the first of my commentary on the McClintock panic dump into places that real cosy relationships with him.

Lee,

Sorry you can appreciate the little things in life: We are a small group that does one thing and that is produce a quality ProLife brochure.

Never given any money to campaign and have not done so with Prop 4 or Prop 8, and you can verify that because they must report such contributions.

We do have proper accounting and we do try to ship the brochures on time so no we have had no complaints. We do the brochures in English and Spanish just in case you know someone who might be interested.

John

Jimmy (Holmes?) from Auburn,

When you can speak without shouting and calling people liars then maybe someone would respond to your questions. When you act like a child you will get treated like one.

Haven't you noticed? Going negative is sending McCain's poll numbers south and many political pundits think this will spill over into local races. Voters are acutely aware of trash in politics this year when there are so many substantial issues facing America. This does not bode well for Doctor No, the Venturian Candidate.

Bob

MIKE HOLMES

Bob, I don't know about Jim Holmes. But yesterday when I spoke to Mike Holmes, Jim's more notable brother, he acted like

AARON PARK IS FILTH...

I kid you not. I'll never forget that. It so impacted me that I have decided to make myself relatively scarce around here. It's like an open sewer that Flint has let get out of control.

Lee

Leehog - ONCE AGAIN OFF TOPIC.

Mike Holmes doesn't like me very much, why?

Save Sierra College - I supported their effort in 2006, I do not support their effort today.

In addition - Mike ran against John Doolittle twice.

Get it? Some people take political differences personal like you and Mike Holmes do.

Prop 8 is killing Charlie Brown by the way. I was out playing bocchi with a group of friends and that's all they could talk about... you see, they couldn't figure out why a military man would be in favor of gay marriage.

Lee - if you expect anyone to believe your anecdote about Mike Holmes' dislike of me has anything to do with my character - than it is really a good thing you are no longer in practice.

Bob, away, you bottle-ale rascal, you filthy bung, away!

MIKE HOLMES NON VERBAL

Aaron, you stink to high heaven

Lee

STRANGER THAN STRANG

Prop 8 is killing Charlie Brown by the way. I was out playing bocchi with a group of friends and that's all they could talk about... you see, they couldn't figure out why a military man would be in favor of gay marriage.

Lee - if you expect anyone to believe your anecdote about Mike Holmes' dislike of me has anything to do with my character - than it is really a good thing you are no longer in practice

Aaron reveals the true intent of Prop 8 is not to protect marriage, but to try to catch a political opponent on the "wrong" side of this issue. Not exactly stop the presses news.

But Aaron is lying through his teeth again about the dominant topic of conversation being prop 8. Nowadays there is simply no two or more people getting together that remotely resembles Aaron's Fantasy Land.

I have had limited social contact in the last 24 hours (much more coming later today at the bridge club). Yesterday when I walked into my church, two very good friends on opposite sides were talking about the financial meltdown in very worried tones.

Then just now I was during circuits on the back part of School House Park and there were these two gentelmen, on opposite sides, talking and the financial crisis. They remained there engaged in this conversation as I did 6 circuits.

Aaron, you are lying through your teeth...

It's like what Mike Holmes said, "Aaron Park makes a lot of claims that are not true"

Lee

So Charlie doesn't want to impose his religion on anybody. What a croc!! So let's see, I guess MLK didn't want to impose his religion of equal jsutice on the south. I guess Dietrich Bonhoffer should not have impose his religion on speaking out agianst the Nazis. I guess William Wilburforce did not want to impose his religion on abolishing slavery in the British Empire.

Oh, and I guess Lazlo Tokes should not have imposed his religion in Timosoara and should have kept quiet in allowing Ceacescu to stay in power.

Charlie, your religion is WORTHLESS, for it say in the book of James "Faith without works is DEAD!!

Lee:

Once again, the DCCC and Bob Lord are constantly airing negative ads against John Shadegg here in Phoenix. So stop with the "I am pure and nice" act and show your hypocrisy like a man.

So after I've done some research, Charlie Brown did oppose the surge, correct? He did effusively praise Murtha's garbage "phased redeployment" doublespeak? Wonder how that worked out.

I saw Veterans for Victory has endorsed Tom McClintock on his vetsfortom site. No word yet on whether Veterans for Defeat has endorsed Charlie Brown.

As for the bailout, I see plenty of stuff out there highlighting McClintock's position on it. And of course he'd focus on it. It combines the growth of government with one of the biggest spending ventures in US history. He's already an expert on many of the issues at hand.

Hector

Bob and Lee-

How is the truth negative?????

You both seem to be afraid to tackle any issues brought forward. You complain incessantly that the campaign should be about issues- but then when they are brought up you change the subject.

These are the real issues that people and the community cares about right now- the economy, government spending, taxes, Proposition 8 (gay marriage), illegal immigration, the war, etc)

Charlie is wrong on all of them- his economic plan is wrong, he is wrong on the bailout, wrong on spending, wrong on earmarks, wrong on taxes, wrong on gay marriage, wrong on immigration, wrong on the war.

Why won't you or Charlie address them in an honest fashion?

Jimmy et al,

You've got to stop thinking it's still 2004.

This is 2008. The issues people care about - yes, even in this conservative district - are different than they were in 2004. Bush received 51% of the popular vote in 2004--today he has a 23% job approval rating, only one point above the all-time low (Truman, 1952). If you don't think 2008 is different from 2004 think about that number for a minute. 23%. Put another way half the people who voted for Bush four years ago disapprove of the job he is doing today. He has the highest disapproval ratings of any president since polling began in 1938. That's where we are at in 2008.

No longer are Republican voters willing to come when called by Karl Rove's God, gays and guns dog whistles. Today they want to know what a candidate will do to protect their 401K or to restore trust in the housing industry so that their primary investment doesn't become the reason they go bankrupt. They see one candidate for Congress who has no plan to respond to the financial crisis - nothing in writing at all - and they see that his opponent has published a detailed American Jobs plan. This matters to people.

Voters can see through baloney. They know when someone has real ideas about how to fix things versus a rigid ideology that allows no room for new ideas. They understand that when a candidate says the bailout was bad but doesn't offer a realistic counterproposal that that candidate probably doesn't have the first idea what to do now that his entire economic philosophy has been thoroughly discredited. They'll gravitate to the guy who realizes that the old game plan didn't work, that something else is needed to get our economy back on track and who is willing to work with people to make it happen.

People are wondering what the next President and the next Congress will do about Afghanistan. Who can they trust to go after Bin Laden instead of spending $10 billion a month in Iraq when the Iraqis don't even want us there anymore? They also don't want a U.S. Representative who votes against veterans when it really counts. They especially don't want someone who never spent a day in uniform attacking a candidate who comes from a family dedicated to serving their country, a man who risked his life in uniform not only in combat but pretty much every time his helicopter became airborne (when I was a young Student Naval Aviator a Marine Corps Major told us to look around the room at three friends...that in a twenty-year career the odds were that one in four of us would be seriously injured or killed in a flying accident or in combat).

People are interested in a real solution for illegal immigration and recognize when one candidate is all about creating a wedge issue and not about solving anything. They don't care for someone who hangs around shady people on the extreme fringe of this issue. Voters recognize when a candidate's immigration "plan" is both impractical and inhumane--a plan that is really nothing more than a subtle way of tapping into people's fears about other people who are different from themselves.

While some voters care deeply about Prop 8 one way or the other the vast majority of us aren't losing sleep over it. Even if a clear majority of CD4 voters support Prop 8 and plan to vote for it that doesn't mean they wouldn't vote for a candidate for Congress who believes in traditional marriage but does not believe his views need to be imposed on those with a different set of beliefs. With all of the other issues weighing on voter's minds this one will matter only to a hard-core few on both sides. For the rest it just isn't that important.

Almost every voter now understands that when Republicans say "tax cuts" they mean "tax cuts for the wealthy" and very little for the Average Joe. After eight years of declining real wages for the low and middle class--and after a disastrous wealth-destroying 2008 for almost everyone--people know that it's time to change gears and try something different to stimulate the economy and to get individual households back on track to the American Dream.

Most of us are paying more and more every year for health care and receiving less and less in return. Voters know the current system isn't as good as it can be and they must wonder when one of the candidates introduces legislation that will make affordable health care even more difficult for people in the middle class. They see that kind of stuff and know that they are seeing the act of someone who is in bed with special interests. After the Doolittle years that is something that voters in this district will definitely want to avoid.

The fact is on almost every single issue--the economy, taxes, immigration, gay marriage, health care, energy, education, etc.--Tom McClintock is out of date and out of step. He's a dinosaur.

That's how I see it and how I think it's going to go down on November 4 in the race for Congress in CA-04.

Bob

"Bob" - Charlie is getting a good return on the money he is paying you in one respect. You are an idealogue through and through. There is nothing Republican about you at all... further proof that your cover story is a bald faced lie.

You just advocated socialized medicine, tax increases, called border secutiry a wedge issue becuase you and liberals like you want to give them a check and a voter reg card...

The most glaring omission in your diaribe is your ignoring that Congress - led by your mistress is in the 18% range... not even CNN or Daily Kos can get those numbers into the 20's.

Amazing... reasons why Colonel Klink is on the Brink. (of the jungle)

leehog - come to the gym with me, tonight I had a conversation about gay marriage with a bunch of the guys in the gym... needless to say, I was kicking myself for not having voter reg cards with me.

BTW - I like Weightlifting much better than Bocchi.

When my rat owners club meets, I am sure right after talking about Charlie Brown in Uniform at the effigy hanging, Gay Marriage will come up. Why? Because same sex marriage proponents point to the behavior of rats as one of their justifications for the normalcy of same sex sex.

Meantime, Mike Holmes doesn't like Colonel Klink that much, either...

I am sure you guys will hear from Mr. Holmes soon.

A conversation about gay marriage among a bunch of guys at a gym???

Really? How DID that conversation get started, Aaron? And how did it finish? Was it something like this?

At the Gym:
Guy 1: "Hey, how much ya got on Giants-Browns?"
Guy 2: "I got a Jackson on the Browns by sixteen."
Guy 1: "Whoa, man, the Giants are undefeated Super Bowl champs. You are NUTS!"
AP: "Uh, hey you guys. Heard of Prop 8?"
Guy 1: "No. I'm not much into politics." (scratches butt)
Guy 2: "Ain't that the one about lightenin' up on drug time? I'm all for that!"
AP: 'No, no. Prop 8 is the one about gay marriage. You know, if gays can get married the next thing you know we'll have dogs and cats hitching up and men marrying their sons. You guys haven't heard about that?"
Guy 2: "I don't give a **** about that one. I'm votin' yes for Prop 5 so's my uncle don't keep doin' hard time for meth and crap."
Guy 1: "Yeah, who gives a **** about whether gays get married? Doesn't have anything to do with me."
AP: "But if gays and lesbians can get married the next thing you know our kids will all be gay. All the gays and lesbians want to do is convert everybody! You should be very afraid!"
Guy 1: "Sounds like you're worried about something deep inside, buddy. Maybe you're afraid of something, ya know?" Elbows Guy 2.
Guy 2: "Sheeee**! I'm getting the hell outta here!"
Guy 1: "Yeah, you're weird buddy. Go down the street and turn right. There's a joint down there with other guys like you."
AP: "Wait, guys. You registered to vote? Hang on! I've got some registration forms in my Mustang!"
Guy 1: "Get lost, buddy. We don't give a rip about that. My brother just lost his house and my retirement fund has taken a nose dive. Why don't you worry about something that really matters?"
Guy 2: "Yeah! Like Prop 5!"

Bob

Now is the time for "Bob" to man up - come to the gym with me. It is right up Washington from the Lincoln Street office you work in.

I will introduce you to the guys you just ridiculed...

I would expect no less from a tolerant open-minded liberal like you to rip on regular folks... meantime you guys take money from Barbara Lee, Brad Sherman and Madeline Allbright - you know people you'd meet at a Country Club and not at the gym.

Damn strange thing is - people that go to the gym have the same number of votes as the Leftists that are raising you $$$. Kinda sucks, doesn't it "Bob"... too bad Acorn is getting raided.

Was that 1500 registrations in CA-04?

How DID you start a conversation about gay marriage at a gym, Aaron? I'm REALLY curious to hear about this! But don't give me too many details, please.

Oh...and Aaron?

I wasn't ridiculing anybody at the gym except you.

Bob

Browns whipped the undefeated Giants 35-14

Ouch...that must hurt. A lot like November 4 will hurt the Reds.

MONDAY SUN CITY ROSEVILLE BRIDGE CLUB

The goodies were streaming in and the wine was chilling in the sink filled with ice. Sy the club prez was holding forth by the chilling wine talking to John. "They didn't ring a bell" explaining the crash of '29 and the banking system seizing up in the months that followed.

On the whole it was mellow time. The second Monday is now Happy Hour Monday. And word was filtering in that the market was on a roll. But we started a quarter to hour so we didn't know about the 900+.

Given that the pressure was off our minds, talk turned to Prop 8.
We all remember what happened just after the crash of '29 in Kansas City when bridge was all the fashion of the swells.

The Bennett Murder Case http://homepage.mac.com/bridgeguys/BGlossary/BennettMurder.html

Long story short, Mrs. Bennett shot her husband who played a hand very badly a fell short of the game contract by 2 tricks.

Anyway, our club has more than its fair share of marital uproar when one or the other makes a bridge boo boo. With one couple, the husband has eloped in the middle of the session twice. I think they have been put on notice of the Cali three strikes rule.

So all were talking up a storm about how Prop 8 will keep marriages traditional. A man and a woman going at it over the bridge table.

Maybe we can have a good murder that will last in the minds of bridge player to the next financial crash somewhere down the road.

We can't have gay couples shooting each other at the bridge club..

That's not traditional...

Lee

I get it - because of 1,500 bogus registrations by Acorn, Charlie Brown will win. Damn it, how naive of me!!!

I get it - because of a 70 year old murder, Gay Marriage should be acceptable... Oh mama...

Bob:

The tax cuts are for the wealthy because low income voters (like me) don't pay any income tax. I pay my taxes via withholding and most if not all of it gets returned to me at the beginning of the next year. The slogan "tax cuts for the waelthy" is just a buzzphrase to incite the less well off to steal money from the rich via the ballot box.

Now for a suprise. Did you know that George McGovern served his country as well and received the Distinguished Flying Corss? Yet his own running mate Thomas Eagleton called him the candidate of abortion, acid and amnesty. Yes, Charlie served his country; that doesn't mean I have to like his liberal vote-buying policies.

As for illegal immigration, you might feel comfortable up there in Northern California, but here in Phoenix, it is very real andwe see on the news everyday. A van was carrying 20 illegals and was evading police when it crashed into another vehicle in South Phoenix. We also have a BIG problem with safehouses here too so don't give me your "wedge issue" nonsense!

YES ON PROP 8

Yes indeed. Aaron doing the Palin thing, putting on lipstick and heels reheasing for the nuptials officiated by Stoos at the gym. Well, that a visual I can't handle. Send Acorn by so I can vote yes about 10 times for Prop 8.

Lemmee see

Leland Reed
Lee Reed
Leroy Reed
Levander Reed
LeShaun Reed
LeBananasfoster Reed
LeBron Reed
Levi Reed
Lee Husein Reed
Leesie Reed (pet name given me by a Mustang Ranch alum when I was at HomeStart)

Aaron,

It's quite possible 8 will pass. $25 million in ad spending can definitely influence voters who don't pay very close attention to the truthfulness of the ads they digest. Flint seems to be doing quite well with the PR campaign according to recent polls.

One of my daughter's Mormon classmates sent an e-mail blast to a couple dozen of her classmates saying she isn't against homosexuals but please take a look at the videos she linked to in the e-mail and tell your parents about them. The videos had gentle images coupled with harsh and misleading messages warning that if Prop 8 is defeated children would be taught to be gay in school and that churches and church leaders would be sued for discrimination. According to an SF Chronicle article, Mormons are contributing heavily to Yes on 8 in addition to doing grassroots stuff like this student-to-student outreach campaign.

My daughter spent the night at a friend's in Roseville last weekend with a bunch of other girls. She told me how they got into an argument about politics. One of the girls was absolutely convinced that Obama is a Muslim. The same girl was also convinced that Obama shouldn't have allowed the Reverend Wright to say what he did in his church. When my daughter pointed out the discrepancy between the two positions the mother of the house jumped in and said that everyone knows that Obama is a closet Muslim and that the only reason he was a member of a Christian church was to create a smokescreen.

Yep, it's amazing what people believe when they want to believe it. You can fool Americans about almost anything as P.T. Barnum was wont to say. But eventually we figure it out. So if 8 passes the next step will surely be a U.S. Supreme Court challenge. By the time that happens Obama may have appointed at least one and maybe two justices and the court will be decidedly more liberal than it is today. This is called reaping what you sow. The dirty and divisive politics of Karl Rove--which had a lot to do with the dilution of the Republican brand over the last three years--will likely enable a relatively liberal Democrat to win the White House while Democrats take potentially decisive majorities in the House and Senate.

Had conservatives just left this alone way back in 2000 by not introducing Prop 22 then it's likely California would still be a state where gay couples have some of the same legal rights as married couples but no legal right to marry. Historically, efforts to restrict rights generally work in the short term but backfire in the long term.

It's too bad so many resources are being wasted on efforts to restrict human rights when there are so many real people with real needs out there.

Bob

Lee,

Those "Lee" variations were hilarious!

Bob

Efrem,

Take a look at the graph on page 5:

census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf

The graph clearly shows that real median household income in the United States was roughly the same in 2007 as it was in 2000: About $50K and change. Between 2007 and today income may have increased a little but given the macroeconomic conditions it's unlikely any increase will last.

Key words:

Real - This means in constant dollars, adjusted for inflation
Median - A much better indicator than average, Median is the midpoint in a data series. For the data above that means 50% of U.S. households had real incomes below $50K and 50% had incomes above $50K in 2000 and 2007. Incomes from 2002 through 2005 were BELOW the level in 2000.
Household - Income a family generates. Often includes two personal incomes or more.

For a different look at income data see this page from the conservative-leaning Tax Foundation:

taxfoundation.org/blog/show/23411.html

With their best numbers they come up with real median household income growth between 2000 and 2006 of no more than 3%. But they also say through a different accounting method real median household income could have actually decreased by 3% at the low end over the same period. In any case their figures fall in a narrow range around 0%.

Now let's look at the U.S. poverty rate:

census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov4.xls

The poverty rate for all U.S. families increased from 2000 to 2007 by 1.1%. Between 2000 and 2004 the rate had increased by 2.5%.

And taxes. The Tax Foundation again:

"Under the Obama plan for 2009," explains Hodge, "more than $131 billion would be shifted from the tax burden of all low-, middle- and high-income taxpayers to the burden of the highest-earning 1 percent."

I don't follow your logic, Efrem. You say you don't pay much if anything in federal taxes and then jump to the conclusion that "tax cuts for the wealthy" is a buzz phrase. Tell me how you make that leap of faith?

Here's some real data from the CBO:

Drop in Income Tax Burdens for Various Groups, 2000-2005

Income Group;
Drop in Effective Federal Individual Income Tax Rate (Percentage Points)

Lowest 20 percent; -1.9 %
Middle 20 percent; -2.0 %
Top 20 percent; -3.4 %
Top 1 Percent; -4.8 %

Source: Congressional Budget Office

So the top 1% saw the largest percentage cut in taxes, Efrem. This data is from 2005 but the tax code has not been changed since then so the percentages should be approximately the same.

Efrem, I am having real trouble understanding how the Bush economic policies has helped someone like you relative to the well off. It sure seems like typical American families have taken it in the shorts. Maybe you could do a little research and come back and tell me why I am wrong about this.

Bob

Efrem,

Re: McGovern.

OK, let's look at who beat McGovern in 1972. Richard Nixon. The only U.S. president to resign in disgrace.

I have a book about McGovern's WWII service. It's called The Wild Blue and it was written by historian Stephen Ambrose. Pull it off the shelf at your library and give it a try. You might come away with a different impression of McGovern as a person even if you still disagree with his policies.

I have never said that Brown's military record should be THE reason to vote for him. I believe it's one of many good reasons. I think McClintock's lousy record on veterans issues is one of many good reasons to not vote for him.

My brother-in-law just voted. For McCain/Palin. He was actually embarassed to talk about it. A lifelong Republican he found he couldn't bring himself to vote for a Democrat even though Obama's health insurance policies would almost literally be a lifesaver for him. He is significantly disabled by a near-death experience from a ruptured colon and cannot afford and doesn't have any health insurance at all. But since his father was a Republican and his grandfather was a Republican he can't even consider voting any other way.

You remind me of my brother-in-law, Efrem. Republican economic policies actually hurt someone like you but you waive it off because of their stand on abortion, gay rights and guns. I have said this before: That's fine. But don't try to tell me you are a Republican because of Republican economic policies. No data support that conclusion.

Bob

Bob:

Don't recite the figures to me, I am a librarian who deals in government publications so I know all of the facts. The simple truth is that Low income earners pay NO income tax once they get their refunds back.

Let me tell you Bob, I earn a modest amount of money and have a car loan that will be paid off next year and a small credit card debt on a card that I haven't used in months. Now I will tell you that the reason people are in poverty is that they don't get a good education, they go wild on their credit cards and make foolish decisions to get a home they can't afford. They want to be like the rich, but they can't do it.

The relation to my statement of paying no income tax and "tax cuts for the wealthy" is the fact that since I pay no net income tax, how in the world is a tax cut for low and middle earners going to amount to anything other than just a few bucks? Don't give me the "those few bucks might mean the difference" smack because I am low income. Tell people to live within their means!!

Go tories in Canada!!

Efrem,

Finally to your last point on immigration.

If there were a federal guest worker program do you think a van full of legal guest workers would have been trying to evade the police? Would there be a need for any safehouses?

McClintock's immigration policy is unrealistic and inhumane. If implemented it would cost billions of dollars and negatively impact the economy. There are much better solutions but they require people to admit to their prejudices and fears so that they can begin to see things through an unfiltered lens.

I have spent quite a bit of time along the borders. I have family who live just a couple blocks from the border park that separates Mexico from Imperial Beach, California who I visit often. I have participated in counter-drug operations on the California border and in Puerto Rico in support of federal, state and local law enforcement agencies. I personally know several familes of illegal immigrants in my own area, people my wife met through her work. Scary people. One quiet young lady (who was brought here from Mexico at the age of seven by her mother) works in the back office of a local chain retailer. One of the husbands, a guy who likes to cook and loves his two little girls, is employed in golf course landscape maintenance. They are all working to improve their English and become part of the community. Just regular people leading regular lives--under a dark cloud.

What I am saying is that I have seen the problem from different angles. It is complex. It requires realistic and humane action. We cannot allow our borders to remain unguarded. But we cannot deport millions and millions of people, either. The idea that they will all "go home" if employers stop hiring them is ludicrous. Where will the lady I know go who was 7 when her family left Mexico? She's 23 now and doesn't know anybody in her old village. If employment dried up in the U.S. it would not be any better in Mexico so why would she ever return unless she were physically deported? Multiply her story by tens of thousands and you can begin to see the challenges associated with solving this problem.

Brown's policy on illegal immigration is sound. It involves closing the borders and requiring illegal aliens in this country to get into the back of the line while recognizing the reality of their presence and the unreality of trying to boot them all out of the country. If people could get over their projudice and fear (some of the fear is simply about losing political power, let's be honest) then the country could solve this problem. Until then people like McClintock are just going to make the situation worse.

Bob

Bob,

But wait! According to Mr. Reed, talking about anything but the bailout means you are ignorant of what the voters care about. Bob, out of touch, focusing on the wedge issue of illegal immigration! Just like that evil McClintock!

Hector

Efrem,

You said:

"Let me tell you Bob, I earn a modest amount of money and have a car loan that will be paid off next year and a small credit card debt on a card that I haven't used in months. Now I will tell you that the reason people are in poverty is that they don't get a good education, they go wild on their credit cards and make foolish decisions to get a home they can't afford. They want to be like the rich, but they can't do it."

You also say you are a librarian who "knows all the facts". All I can say is it is sometimes a stretch between knowing and understanding.

One day my brother-in-law was a journeyman carpenter making good money. The next day he woke up in the hospital with his guts all torn up. He lived with a bag for a few months before his bowels were reconstructed. He has a piece of plastic beneath his skin in place of a large portion of his abdominal muscles which had to be removed due to the infection from his ruptured colon.

He had 50% medical insurance that paid for a little less than half of the $100K plus in medical bills that followed his surgeries. He cannot lift anything over about forty pounds and is very limited in movement. He cannot work as a carpenter. He has been getting by through light handyman work but it comes slowly because he is so limited in what he can do.

Yes, he didn't get a very good education. His parents split up when he was eight and he went back and forth from one parent to the other. His father was a salesman and traveled and his mother was in nursing school for five years at night while working days. His older sister, my wife, helped him with his schoolwork when he was living with his mom but he never did get a very good education. He tried college but couldn't keep up.

He never wanted to be rich and doesn't waste his money. He is paying off his medical bills and living in a twenty by ten foot outbuilding behind someone's house. He has a pickup that is almost paid for but he can't drive it much because of the price of gas.

There are hundreds of thousands of people like this, Efrem. People who weren't as blessed as some of the rest of us.

Now I didn't ever say that you would do better under Obama in terms of taxes. You're right; you're not paying much now and you would not be paying much under either an Obama or McCain administration. But you are lucky you are one of the lower income people who have health care (I'm assuming you do as a librarian). And, once again, the Bush economic policies have probably meant you saw very little real income growth over the last few years. Or at least far less than you enjoyed during the 1990s. At least that's the case with the vast majority of lower-income Americans. If you are different you are an exception.

Let's be honest. You are a Republican for social policy reasons. If you think about it objectively there is no possible way you could conclude that Republicans have more to offer you financially than Democrats. None.

Bob

I'M VOTING FOR McCLINTOCK

Yes, I am putting it right out there. The Republicans made me a banker just in the past day or so. Specifically Bush et. al. made me a banker. So I can no longer be a Democrat.

I live in California. So I am applying for membership in the California Bankers Association. Tom McClintock takes good care of the California Bankers Association. So the least I can do is vote for McClintock.

I will continue to drive my Prius. And I will stay in my paid for 1200 sq.ft. home. No putting on the dog for me.

I'll just be one of those plain ol' billionaires next door...

Lee

MY BANK CONSULTANT

Bank failures are caused by depositors who don't deposit enough money to cover losses due to mismanagement.
Dan Quayle

So everybady stop eat less and work more to put money in my banks. This country is too fat and flabby anyway...

And I want old folks to get back to work. Like the 80 year lady who has gone back to work and lost her Social Security. She was just a little ahead of the rest of us by a few weeks..

Lee

Bob:

I vote for social policy because I believe that there are more governments beside federal and state governments. Family government and church government has been under attack for the last half century by people who believe that such organizations are the hallmarks of a anachronistic era that they should be removed to the dustbin of history.

Fathers and mothers in the old days use to provide for their children and scripture clearly states that if a man does not provide for his own household (including defending his house with firepower), he has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel. Many have left that job to the government as fathers and mothers have left their families to pursue trophy wives and husbands or go after other pleasures. Witness the inner cities of Detroit or Los Angeles (or even the posh towns of Beverly Hills or Miami Beach) and you know what I mean. Abortion is just a symptom of this huge problem.

Churches are commanded in scripture to provide for their own congregations, but now the churches are on the whole merely social clubs whose reasons for existing have been long forgotten.

Indeed Bob and Lee, I can go on and on, but I will end this for now as I will once again leave the board for a while and leave the "dirty work" to Aaron, John and Hector. I can't vote for Tom so I will vote for David Scweikert in CD 5-AZ and bring sanity to Washington. God will save us from our calamity Bob and not the government for as the psalmist says:

"Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the Lord our God."

Efrem,

You may not respond to this, but...

Have you voted for John McCain for U.S. Senator? Do you plan to vote for him for President?

"Many have left that job to the government as fathers and mothers have left their families to pursue trophy wives and husbands or go after other pleasures. Witness the inner cities of Detroit or Los Angeles (or even the posh towns of Beverly Hills or Miami Beach) and you know what I mean."

Does that include the posh and tony town of Sedona, Arizona? Seems your Senator and the Republican candidate for president suffers from the trophy wife family breakdown problem you describe.

Bob

SOCIAL PROBLEMS ARE IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER

McCain gets a pass at Rick Warren's little get together when he confesses that leaving his first marriage was his greatest moral transgression. He delivered this confession with a winsome preamble that brought the crowd in behind him.

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=5cddef01f40b4ded9f15