Oh, Aaron. This was a bad post for McClintock. It's a bad post first because Brown's story IS a great example of the kind of independent thinking that we would want from a congressman. Someone who will do the right thing even if it could potentially cost him his job or his career. How much of THAT do we see in Congress today? And second because, in this instance among so many others, you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

Let's deal with the clueless Aaron issue first.

He is absolutely wrong. The criteria that makes an order unlawful has nothing at all to do with whether that order would lead to a felony or not. No, instead a military member is obligated to disobey an unlawful order. An unlawful order can be as simple as an officer ordering a soldier in his office to wash the officer's personal car. The soldier is well within his rights to refuse that order and should suffer no consequences. In fact, the officer would get in trouble. On the other extreme you have the My Lai massacre where LT Calley's orders to his platoon to execute civilians were plainly unlawful and should have been disobeyed.

Back to Brown's example. He is pro-choice that could have led to a Court Martial proceeding. But the military actually pays its people to make good decisions; a military member defies a direct lawful order at his or her own peril, but the question of whether the decision to disobey was correct or not is situational. If Brown had been taken to trial and the evidence had shown that his chopper was in a position to make a difference in saving lives then it's very likely the charges would have been dropped and he may have even received a commendation for good judgment. As it stood the Air Force obviously looked at the evidence and decided he did the right thing so Brown was never charged in the first place. There are plenty of examples where members of the military disregarded direct (and lawful) orders and ended up getting a medal for their actions. These instances are and should be few and far between, though. To disobey a lawful order or to defy the leader of your caucus are both serious steps that require judgment and good intentions.

I remember a poster on a wall in an office when I was in the Navy. It had a couple of quotes that pertain to the principal I have outlined above:

From the diary of a Soviet Army Lieutenant:
"One of the serious problems in planning the fight against American doctrine, is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine..."

From a post-war debriefing of a German general:
"The reason the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices it on a daily basis."

Bob

Bobby! I am glad you took the bait? Were there other choppers dispatched out there? Did Charlie take the 5 seconds to ask?

Everyone knows the officer ordering someone to be their personal servant is a violation of the UCMJ - you are deliberately mixing apples and oranges.

Now - here is a place where your cover story sets you on fire. I was the MP not you. What Lt. Col. Brown indicated is a case of gross insubordination - gross. This would be an open and shut investigation. You should have had Brett Rambo Shylock counsel Brown before he opened his mouth.

Unless he can provide evidence that he did some due dilligence before defying the order then he should have been court-martialed. a 5-second question of "Sir are there rescue crews dispatched out there..." not just violating the order and running out to the area. That is a partial-birth abortion of safety as well because other choppers could have been en route and Brown's detachment could have cluttered an already dangerous situation.

You are in a position of being forced to cover every point for Charlie - his DD214 would bear clues if he had a disciplinary record, beyond only making 0-5 in 26 years of service.

Either this event never occurred or Lt. Col. Brown got in hot water. Sounds like Koh Tang island was not an isolated event.

You guys can do better than this, can't you?

Aaron,

"I was the MP not you". True. But you received an OTH discharge, not me. And I was in for twenty years, worked in legal offices, led formal investigations and was an XO and a CO of a commissioned Navy unit, not you. It was my job to understand and administer military justice. It was yours to catch alleged perps and make sure they stayed locked up until released.

As I said disobeying a direct lawful order is not something an officer or any military member takes lightly. They do it at their own peril. If the person's intentions are good and the result is good then the military would be foolish to prosecute. There is no precedent at stake here because there are many examples of people in the military disobeying a lawful order with good results and the military condoning their actions. As I said, it's what we pay people to do: Use judgment and make good decisions.

You don't know the actual circumstances any more than I do. This story rings true to me, though. I've been involved with Naval Aviation and understand how the situation Brown describes could easily occur in such a way that his information was superior to his controlling authority's. I have no reason to question Brown when he says that his command told him he had done the right thing. You don't have a leg to stand on (as usual).

Read a book about the USS Indianapolis if you want an example of just how bad a military controlling authority can be at understanding what is going on with units out in the real world.

You can rant and rave all you want but you are digging a deeper hole for your candidate and yourself. What Brown did took courage. It's the kind of courage that resonates with people, and it's the kind of courage McClintock has never had to muster because he's never been in command of anything. Your attack on Brown's decision? It doesn't resonate with anybody who thinks about it and is honest with themself.

Bob

Can someone please explain the reference to staffers for campaigns that you have apparently named "lollypop" that should go to the "Castro" in San Francisco, and to another one that posters have named "shylock?"

Can the site moderator please review both posts and comments, as these appear to be derogatory, at the least, and possibly homophobic or anti-semitic?

GOING NEGATIVE NOT WORKING?

Norm Coleman decided today to pull all his negative ads.

McCain has reversed course the last hour:

He is asking his supporters to be "respectful" and

"He is a decent person and a person who you do not have to be scared as president of the United States."

The speculation is that is these times of financial crisis, internal polling is showing that slinging mud means losing ground.

Lee,

There is no doubt about that. McCain's ride down the slide has accelerated since he and Palin went negative. Voters across the country are very sensitive to this issue.

We agree: Aaron needs to keep up the fear and loathing posts and comments. There is almost nothing better for Brown and worse for McClintock than another goofy Aaron Park attack piece.

Bob

Yet it is full speed ahead for negative ads against John Shadegg and Sydney Hay in Arizona. Stop the hypocrisy guys!!

Gentlemen - You'd best quit whining.

I am not going to let up until I see retractions, nor will I let up until I see clear stances on the issues from Brown and finally, Brown needs to stand up call a press conference and admit his anti-war activity and own his allegiances to left-wing groups.

Bob wrote, ""I was the MP not you". True. But you received an OTH discharge, not me. And I was in for twenty years, worked in legal offices, led formal investigations and was an XO and a CO of a commissioned Navy unit, not you. It was my job to understand and administer military justice. It was yours to catch alleged perps and make sure they stayed locked up until released."

"Bob" - you're lying, your identity is a lie and now you have changed your cover story. Second - you need to dispatch Brett Shylock and Nick Lollypopadopolous to research my DD-214. Until you have a copy of it - you'd best not speculate on what it says. I told Leehog as well - I haven't seen my DD214 in 15 years.

Now is the time to prove who you are and man up like Brown has yet to do.

FATSO GETS DELUSIONAL

Actually Fatso being delusional is not a recent event. For as long as I have been aware of Fatso, he has been all ate up with grandiosity.

He actually thinks he holds some power. Power is defined as having something someone else wants. Illegitimate power is based on holding some sort of painful negitive such as an elephant standing on one's foot and badly wanting that elephant to please get off.

You see, Fatso is a nothing and that is the pain that he carries around inside. He is the nothing of the bully who wants to be somebody.

The sadness of his plight is that he could have had legitimate power. But let legitimate power takes patience, and effort, and discipline, qualities that are lacking. The lacking of these qualities led to him being a nothing in the first place.

He is no better than a gangbanger who gets a Saturday night special on the cheap. He got a blogsite called www.rosevilleconservative.com. Back when I first got to know him, he boasted of the "flame thrower" that he wielded at those he did not like. Cheap and ephemeral power had been his thing. No patience, no effort, no discipline.

He has consigned himself to the lower rungs of the social totem pole. It didn't have to be that way. He could have chosen another path. He could have been a late bloomer as the Nazarene was. He could have chosen the way of the Nazarene. Patience, effort, discipline, integrity...

An alter call does not automatically bestow those qualities. Far from it. Born again is a process and not an event. It is never easy. Especially for those came to the alter being dug in the hole of life because of lack of patience, lack of effort, lack of discipline, lack of integrity.

There is Good News, Fatso thinks he has received the Good News, but he hasn't. That takes patience, effort, discipline, and integrity.

I for one am not holding my breath. The ways of the impatient, the lazy, the undisciplined, and the lacking of integrity is hard to change.

Lee Reed

Leehog - thanks for the psychoanalysis, now answer the questions.

btw - it was a blogspot site called roseville conservative. Someone else has it now, someone who is on the Sierra College staff.

At least you should have some truth behind your analysis - but thanks for doing it free of charge. It would have been a shame to pay $125 an hour for the above.

Lee,

Remind me again what office Aaron is running for, I seem to have forgotten.

You have tried to attack Senator McClintock and could not find any thing of substance. You have tried to promote Charlie and found him wanting, so your only recourse if to call Aaron a bully and me a religious zealot. We are happy to defend ourselves, but I just wanted the folks on the list to notice that you are WAY off subject.

I also must comment that you and I must have different Bibles. Mine does not say one is saved by having, "patience, effort, discipline, and integrity." It says we are saved by having faith in the finished work of Jesus. Those things are certainly fruits of such salvation, but we should not get that confused or we will have a whole new generation of Pharisees.

John

"AARON PARK CLAIMS A LOT OF THINGS THAT ARE NOT TRUE"

Aaron who gets the Theologian to give him the support of the idea that there is CHEAP GRACE. Perhaps the Theologian thinks that is in store for himself, too, he who not so long ago condescending suggested I read Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Bonhoefeffer is one of hundreds that occupy our bookshelves. Read Bonhoeffer yourself, John.

GRACE IS NOT ON THE CHEAP as you suggest...

Cheap grace is the deadly enemy of our Church. We are fighting today for costly grace. Cheap grace means grace sold on the market like cheapjacks’ wares. The sacraments, the forgiveness of sin, and the consolations of religion are thrown away at cut prices. Grace is represented as the Church’s inexhaustible treasury, from which she showers blessings with generous hands, without asking questions or
fixing limits. Grace without price; grace without cost! The essence of grace, we suppose, is that the account has been paid in advance; and, because it has been paid, everything can be had for nothing.... 45

Cheap grace means grace as a doctrine, a principle, a system. It means forgiveness of sins proclaimed as a general truth, the love of God taught as the Christian 'conception' of God. An intellectual assent to that idea is held to be of itself sufficient to secure remission of sins.... In such a Church the world finds a cheap covering for its sins; no contrition is required, still less any real desire to be delivered from sin. Cheap grace therefore amounts to a denial of the living Word of God, in fact, a denial of the Incarnation of the Word of God. 45-46

Cheap grace means the justification of sin without the justification of the sinner. Grace alone does everything they say, and so everything can remain as it was before. 'All for sin could not atone.' Well, then, let the Christian live like the rest of the world, let him model himself on the world’s standards in every sphere of life, and not presumptuously aspire to live a different life under grace from his old life under sin....

Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession.... Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate. 47

Costly grace is the treasure hidden in the field; for the sake of it a man’ will gladly go and self all that he has. It is the pearl of great price to buy which the merchant will sell all his goods. It is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble, it is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his nets and follows him.

Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock. Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son: “ye were bought at a price,” and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. Costly grace is the Incarnation of God.

Costly grace is the sanctuary of God; it has to be protected from the world, and not thrown to the dogs. It is therefore the living word, the Word of God, which he speaks as it pleases him. Costly grace confronts us as a gracious call to follow Jesus. It comes as a word of forgiveness to the broken spirit and the contrite heart. Grace is costly because it compels a man to submit to the yoke of Christ and follow him; it is grace because Jesus says: “My yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

On two separate occasions Peter received the call, “Follow me.” It was the first and last word Jesus spoke to his disciple (Mark 1.17; John 21.22). A whole life lies between these two calls. The first occasion was by the lake of Gennesareth, when Peter left his nets and his craft and followed Jesus at his word. The second occasion is when the Risen Lord finds him back again at his old trade. Once again it is by the lake of Gennesareth, and once again the call is: “Follow me.” Between the two calls lay a whole life of discipleship in the following of Christ. Half-way between them comes Peter's confession, when he acknowledged Jesus as the Christ of God....
way did grace arrest him, the one grace proclaimed in

This grace was certainly not self-bestowed. It was the grace of Christ himself, now prevailing upon the disciple to leave all and follow him, now working in him that confession which to the world must sound like the ultimate blasphemy, now inviting Peter to the supreme fellowship of martyrdom for the Lord he had denied, and thereby forgiving him all his sins. In the life of Peter grace and discipleship are inseparable. He had received the grace which costs.

As Christianity spread, and the Church became more secularized, this realization of the costliness of grace gradually faded. The world was Christianized, and grace became its common property. It was to be had at low cost....

One get grace not from merely an alter call and then holding down a seat in church a time or two during the week...

Aaron is a SERIAR LIAR. This was affirmed by none other than Mike Holmes this morning. We both WERE at a Gathering Inn function at a United Methodist Church in Loomis. I introduced my self as "Aaron Park's nemesis". He said he had only met Aaron once, quite a while ago. I said that I understood that he and his brother had lunch relatively recently with the Park Brothers. He said, "Only Jim, my brother. Aaron claims a lot of things that are not true."

This loops back to CHEAP GRACE. Aaron thinks he can sin left and right but he is somehow covered by the grace granted by the Nazarene.

Not according to Dietrich Bonhoeffer No, Bonhoeffer specifically names DISCIPLINE FIXING LIMITS

Lee,

I don't see anything here that Bonhoeffer wrote that I would disagree with, in fact I will be preaching much of it next week with the healing of the blind man and the need to walk in the light!

Here is what I said that brought out the great material from Rev. Bonhoeffer: "I also must comment that you and I must have different Bibles. Mine does not say one is saved by having, "patience, effort, discipline, and integrity." It says we are saved by having faith in the finished work of Jesus. Those things are certainly fruits of such salvation, but we should not get that confused or we will have a whole new generation of Pharisees."

First I don't see what Rev. Bonhoeffer would disagree with and secondly if you think I am advocating "cheap grace" then you need to put down Bonhoeffer for a while and go back to reading Romans!

John

From Sac Bee...

Charlie Brown- the co-pilot. What a liar again... Charlie was the Co-Pilot in this story.

(Insert looserly Charlie Voice)
I can stand up to Nancy Pelsoi because I sat next to someone flying a helicopter who decided to disobey an order." Anyone who has ever served in this capacity knows the co-pilot is affectionately known as the "first passenger".

Wow- Liberal- LIAR- Charlie...Now taking credit for someone else’s decision (question- did the pilot get prosecuted?)

And in 1977 (Sac Bee) Chuck was still a co-pilot? He was a Co-Pilot when he wasn't in Viet Nam in '75...did he ever get to fly????

AARON PARK RUNS RAMPANT OVER THE FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT

Galatians Verses 22, 23

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control; against such there is no law.

John, you mock patience, effort, discipline, and integrety. You see no Christian virtures in these qualities. In your theology the anthesis of patience, effort, discipline, and integrity practiced daily and with malice aforethough are given forgiveness at the end of each day. Bonhoeffer does not think so. That would be cheap grace.

Lee Reed

Leehog - I am glad you are at the gates of insanity.

Please re-read the post I put up about George and I meeting with Jim Holmes and utter an apology. It is common knowledge that Mike Holmes dosen't like me very much anyway... you should do more due dilligence. I am still waiting for a copy of my DD214

You claim to be a Christian, yet support Gay Marriage and Abortion on Demand. You claim to have a PHD equivalent education yet you are reduced to blubber.

I can't even believe I am having to say this to a man old enough to be my father.

AARON PARK RAMBLES AND DOES NOT ADDRESS AARON PARK RUNS RAMPANT OVER THE FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT

(reposted)

AARON THE SLICK

In rechecking Aaron's boast, the headline said in large bold black:

Holmes Brothers have Lunch with Park Brothers

and then this in very obscure type:

(OK, so we were missing Mike)

Again Aaron is true to form. I wonder how many insurance customers he slicks this way?

Sociopaths main way of relating to others is to get over on them...and so it is with Aaron.

And very, very typical of sociopaths, they question the sanity of those who confront them.

Lee Reed

But that is not stop the presses news

Lee,

You said, "John, you mock patience, effort, discipline, and integrety. You see no Christian virtures in these qualities."

I would challenge you to show ANYTHING in what I have posted that even comes close to implying this: If you can't then an apology would be in order!

Thank you

John

Go back to my original post and your response to it...You strongly imply cheap grace is the message of the Nazarene and St. Paul. And the end all and the be all of being born again.

eom

Lee,

THAT was neither prove nor an apology! I don't care what you read into my posts, I expect you to show my in plain English where I said the outrageous things you accuse me of saying.

As the old saying goes, 'put up or apologize.'

John

You are all missing a major point and another LIE by our the good Lt. Col.- He says, “because I was a rescue helicopter pilot.”- NO HE WAS NOT! He was the Co-Pilot!

The Pilot of the craft is who is ultimately responsible for the decisions made on that craft. Charlie was just along for the ride- if the story is true at all.

Charlie is a sheep- he follows directions well, but never a leader. Right now he is executing plan Pelosi- and if he were elected he would do as he is told.

Jimmy,

A chill pill is recommended. You are going to bust a vein. Sorry your guy is doing so poorly. Don't worry - you'll get over it.

Bob