Looks like you have done your homework, Senor Jubal. This appears to be the last entry but if you want to create an on-going series, i will be here to read it.

Dang. Way to go Jubal. Another good article. I'm waiting to see how Los Angeles does it or for that matter all the surrounding counties. But remember if you will, there is probably some dark exhibitions that you will never have the opportunity see in our local system other than the ones already revealed by the special Grand Jury at Theo. There are some issues at the main jail too. I'm sure. So great job at being a reporter. I look forward to the next in the series

Good job Jubal! The points that needed to be made were made! Lets hope the Board of Supes do the right thing!

Jubal,

Respect is the difference between a good jail and a bad one, in your opinion? Wow.

Sounds a little Obama-esqe. You know, just sit down and chat and all will be well in the world.

For example, I assume you treat your children with “respect?” Have you ever had an issue with their behavior that required some parental intervention on your part? Was their bad behavior because you didn’t show the children enough respect?

See where I’m going with this?

I think jail operations is a little more complex than simply the way an inmate is treated by staff – though the treatment of an inmate is important. Respect and fairness are important components of this, BUT there are a lot of other pieces that must fit together as well to ensure a well functioning custody facility.

These pieces are in CONSTANT motion and are continuously being managed by jail staff. Really, it’s hour-by-hour sometimes and when it goes well, no one notices. When it doesn’t go well – it’s everybody’s business and everyone knows more than the ones who do it 24/7.

I’ll look forward to your review of the Los Angeles County Jail system – one of the largest and most complex systems in the USA. Make sure to tell them you’re from the OC and run your “respect” thing by them when you’re up there! I can’t wait to hear their response.

Cheers.

Respect is the difference between a good jail and a bad one, in your opinion? Wow.

Sounds a little Obama-esqe. You know, just sit down and chat and all will be well in the world.

Sarge, don't put words in my mouth. You know perfectly well I didn't say that.

For example, I assume you treat your children with “respect?” Have you ever had an issue with their behavior that required some parental intervention on your part? Was their bad behavior because you didn’t show the children enough respect?

Yeah, I use the Theo Lacy method of child discipline: I allow the neighborhood children to come over and beat them to death while I watch television.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but if you're going to give my post the reductio ad absurdum treatment...

Jubal,

And you know what -- there are neighborhood bullies that would pick on your children regardless of how YOU treated them. Some kids are like that. Been going on since, forever?

What happened to Mr. Chamberlain took place in OCJ and was awful. I wish it didn't happen and everyone that I work with at OCSD feels the same way! However, there are inmates that will continue to commit crimes inside jails and that includes attacks other inmates, Jubal.

The inmate behavior that targets inmates against each other has little to do with respectful treatment from staff. Jail staff needs to do a lot to understand and managed this and then actively monitor the inmates. Any breakdown in the chain can result in events like the violence against Mr. Chamberlain. It’s a constant struggle inside our facilities and every other custody facililty.

Today, there are about 6,000 permanent residents at OCJ on a daily basis and with thousands more that pass through yearly! Jubal, YOU have no way of knowing how many other inmates TODAY or in the PAST might have faced similar violence from other inmates because of the “inmate code” that WAS interrupted because of good jail management and staff actions. YOU have no way of knowing how many incidents were planned by inmates that DID NOT take place in our jails!

Rest assured, Jubal that the answer is in the thousands of inmates! Believe me or ask someone familiar with jails or prisons. Each and every day there are hits planned on inmates by other inmates and these are managed and prevented by jail staff.

You need to acknowledge that without the Chamberlain incident, most people – including the media and the Board of Supervisors could give a rat’s a++ about jail operations at Theo Lacy Facility, OCJ or the Santa Ana Jail.

You need to acknowledge that county jail management has tried to do and wanted to do MANY things to improve jail operations over the years (from Carona to Gates to Musick) that were met with resistance and objection and not done, for a variety of reasons – some of them good reasons and some not.

No one talks about this because it’s easier to point fingers at a few rank-and-file staff union members who didn’t do their jobs that day and wash their hands of all the rest. And there’s a lot of hand washing taking place!!

At the end of the day, jail management is a very complicated.

People with the best of intentions, lots of training , college education and years of experience inside custody facilities are constantly adjusting to the ever-changing circumstances involved in running jails or prisons. Improvements inside OCJ can be made. Rightfully, the next Sheriff will be tasked with improving jail operations, but it’s not going to be a simple, quick or cheap fix.

I appreciate the time and the interest you took to visit various jail facilities and I know you are simply voicing your views. I’m just trying to keep you from simplifying a very complex undertaking.

Cheers.

Sarge:

These posts have been an examination of direct supervision in action. We have an example of it in a 480-bed jail facility here in Orange County. We would be foolish NOT to examine it.

Yet this seems to be taken as some kind of condemnation of the county jails. Shouldn't we be looking to make improvements, rather than excuses?

Jubal,

Sure we should.

What I am suggesting in my push-backs to you and to others is that the OCSD has done all of this in the past. Been there, done that.

We have what we have in facilities, staffing and management techniques and we can always improve. But, the desire to improve had been an on-going effort that has taken place over the tenure of three sheriffs; tens of command staff; and many county supervisors in my time with OCSD and we are still here today.

It's complicated - but it's not new. You seem to think no one has been paying attention to any of this stuff until today.

This stuff isn't new to any of us that work at OCSD.

We’ve talked about staffing issues and solutions; we’ve talked about alternatives to incarceration; we’ve talked about improvements and additions to our physical plant/jail facilities; we’ve talked about limitations with our physical plant; we’ve talked about different inmate management techniques; we’ve talked about training; we’ve talked and talked and talked. It’s not new to any of us.

You made a couple of visits over the span of a few hours inside one or two jail facilities and seem to think you see something that no one else has. You get excited about stuff that we all yawn about because we’ve seen it and done it before!

Someone will get lots of brownie points for developing some plan that will be nothing more than a doorstop in a very short period of time. For example,

The OCSD has planning to develop Musick Facility for a long time (I think candidate Carona talked about it in his first campaign that was what, ten years ago?). Can’t have direct supervision of inmates without a new facility, Jubal.

I worked one of the first shifts in the Musick “tents” in 1984 or 1985 that were temporary housing units then and are still in use today.

I stood on that facility twenty years ago (don’t remember exactly) and watched them deliver the “train wreck” that we still have inmates in today.

The current plan to expand Musick is hitting the wall again. Ask Irvine about it there cooperative spirit to develop this jail.

Lacy expansion started something like fifteen years ago and the barracks where the incident took place were built with the best of intentions but today are outdated units that need money to fix. Other security areas at Lacy are still unattended. Ask Orange about there cooperative spirit to find alternate ways to manage inmates.

The Central Main Jail was built in the late 70s and it was originally built with expansion in mind, and that never took place.

A large jail facility was planned to be in the quarry area around Gypsum Canyon that was scuttled by various interest groups for a host of reasons. Lots of time, money and opportunity lost on that thing! Ask the Board of Supervisors about why it was shot down.

Et cetera.

So, yea let’s talk about it again. The process of developing a new plan will take months - years, maybe and it will not even get started until a new Sheriff is chosen, which is months away.

Implementing the plan will be the challenge and it will take additional years, lots of leadership and cooperation from a multitude of stakeholders and then lots of money. LOTS of MONEY.

I’d rather see some action.

I’d rather see support of taxpayers, like you who seem to only complain about how overpaid we are or how much of a burden we all are on you, but don’t pony up to implement any plan or work to overcome NIMBYism.

I’ll listen to you more when I see you pony up on your blog to get support for the Musick expansion where you could review that direct supervision module at the Musick Facility.

Talk is cheap and tiring.

Cheers

You made a couple of visits over the span of a few hours inside one or two jail facilities and seem to think you see something that no one else has.

"Seem" is the key word there, Sarge -- because I don't think that. "Seems" like your projecting defensiveness.

You get excited about stuff that we all yawn about because we’ve seen it and done it before!

Good for you guys. I hope you don't mind if us civilians join the discussion.

Can’t have direct supervision of inmates without a new facility, Jubal.

Yeah, I know. Maybe you can point out where I said you could.

Maybe you missed where I pointed out that direct supervision want work in the linear portion of OCJ because it's linear.

For crying out loud, Sarge -- why are you getting so worked up about people outside of the OCSD talking about jail operations?

Well, I apologize for taking the discussion to a broader audience. I guess we can continue leaving it up to the professionals -- but that "don't ask questions, leave everything up to us" approach hasn't worked out very well, has it?

I’ll listen to you more when I see you pony up on your blog to get support for the Musick expansion where you could review that direct supervision module at the Musick Facility.

I'm all for expanding Musick, Sarge. But hey -- if I put up a post, do I then get permission to discuss jail issues?

Sarge asked:

Was their bad behavior because you didn’t show the children enough respect?

Often, Yes.

I am blessed with kids that rarely misbehave -- but lack of respect on my part does sometimes lead to their misbehavior. And it's not just my kids. There is a "problem child" on my street. He's always the first suspect when something goes awry.

I, however, have few problems with this young man. I have always treated him with respect (which includes initiating punishment when he clearly violates rules). As a result, he regards me as "fair" and I have few problems with him. Indeed, he's my most reliable "helper" on the street.

I believe this is fairly universal. I have several friends who are Military Officers and they are clear: you can't lead men and women who don't respect you. A major step towards creating that respect is treating them with respect. They do not mean "coddling" - oh no. They mean providing clear expectations (including consequences for failure) and then giving them a clear, "fair" chance to meet or fail those expectations on their own. That is, respect them a human beings, and let them succeed or fail within the established parameters by their own lights. These officers are even clearer on a related point: fear does not work. Physical abuse is even worse.

Again, "respect" does not mean "coddle." In Jubal's postings men were forced to wear orange jumpsuits and walk about a confined ara in manicles. Yikes. But the were still treated with respect -- t.

Times change. First stop is some good old fashioned management by somebody who has experience in the area of operating a large jail facility. Then time to evolve. It is helpful to hear how other facilities are run and I'm particularily looking forward to hearing about how LASO runs their mega operation. After all if you want the Board of Supervisors and the public to help out with the needed changes they need to know how things are done. At this point in time I think that when some studies are done the Board of Supervisors will be prepared to do some funding for upgrades, improvements and staffing changes (if indicated) and I'm not talking about putting extra cameras in one facility

I guess we can continue leaving it up to the professionals -- but that "don't ask questions, leave everything up to us" approach hasn't worked out very well, has it?

Actually, it has worked out very well!

The trained professionals that work in the county jails have done a great job over the years. It hasn’t been perfect – but what is? The community is safe and they have only occasional worries about the jails. Really. Most of the time, the jails are taken for granted. People worry more about lots of other things before they even think about the jails. Usually and most of the time this is the case!

Overall, I would stand behind the track record of the men and women that staff our county jails over similar jail facilities around the state or nation. We do as good a job as anyone and better than many. This includes sworn law enforcement staff and non-sworn staff that are custodial or non-custodial in nature – anyone who works at our county jail facilities.

So yes, I would stick with the professionals on this one! What you do isn’t simple and you do it well, but operating a complex jail system is a bit more difficult than you seem to accept. I'd take someone who has walked the walk and talked the talk over the alternative.

I guess your comments are typical of the lack of respect that we get. But, this too is old news to all of us professionals in law enforcement. Been there, done that too! Comes with the territory, I guess, but even knowing that doesn’t make it any easier to do.

Cheers.

Hold on, Sarge. I'm trying to play the violin while crying a river for you.

This conversation would go better if you'd stop telling me what I think and instead respond to what I actually say.

And lack of respect, my foot. If an OCSD deputy can't handle a civilian saying, "Hey, maybe we can learn some things from how they operate the Santa Ana Jail" without weeping about "not getting any respect" then it's no wonder the OCSD is so hidebound.

Jubal, why are you even giving Sergeant the time of day?

This is the same guy who whistled a happy tune all through the Carona scandals, even though he knew full well what Carona was doing and what kind of man he was.

Sergeant is the LAST guy who'll tell the truth about what's happening in the OCSD.

Sergeant seems calm and matter of fact while Jubal seems to be the defensive one here to me.

Jubal, it isn't that we are upset with a dialog about how to make the jail a better place because we all want that. OCSD and every agency out there needs to continue to improve, it's what most of us strive for. Who doesn't want to do a good job and be proud of where they work. No... I think the odd thing here is how it seems to be self-serving, maybe that's not the right word... it just seems odd to be writing this long, 3 part story AND having someone else write a glowing article about the same thing. I feel like we are being force feed on how wonderful Paul's jail is. This doesn't seem genuine. It feels very much like more PR to me. Was this Lewis or Holder's idea? They do advertise with you, don't they?

Jubal, is it true that your wife use to work for John Lewis? Could there possibly be a bit of a conflict of interest here? Just wondering.

This seems to smell funny to me. I am suprised since you always seem to be much more fair and impartial than this. What gives?

How does that song go?: "Paranoia strikes deep..."

Good to see one of our brave boys in green questioning someone's integrity from behind a pseudonym.

Now get back to watching TV in the guard station.

Your perception is your reality.

I push back whenever the rank-and-file are unfairly used as pawns in a political game. I did it then, doing it now and will do it in the future. Any debate or discussion that takes a wide swipe at all of us should be challenged.

That’s my perception.

Cheers.

Ooops, the 12:22 PM post replying to Sarge was me, Tylerh. Sorry about posting as anonymous.

Wow. Sergeant seems so threatened by your article. Makes me wonder which candidate he is supporting.

And 'Pot', if you believe Jubal "to have always been much more fair and impartial than this." Why are you thinking that would change? Again, it appears that you guys are all threatened by this article. If by 'fair and impartial' you mean, 'only on those subjects that agree with your way of thinking' then, perhaps you should start your own blog. And, just for added insulation from differing opinions, make it a one-sided conversation--just like the Sheriff's blog on the OCSD site.

Nah, not afraid nor threatened. I think discussion and debate are interesting, thought provoking and healthy. I don't have all of the answers but do like hearing other's ideas so I have no problem with hearing some good ideas that have worked for Santa Ana's Jail. Good for them but still not sure if it would work with OCJ, but it's certainly worth looking into. Like a previous poster referred to, it may cost more $$$ than the BOS wants to spend to revamp the older jails. Then you've got Orange and Irvine trying to block any good changes at Lacy and the Farm. It will be interesting to see what will happen.

And no, I do not always agree with everything jubal says but I have always thought him to be pretty fair and impartial on most occasions. I just question the REASON behind this series of stories about the jail. The timing is suspect. Why can't someone question someone else's motives without others making silly comments about paranoia. Seems immature to me but I guess when YOU feel threatened, it's the easy way out to accuse others of being paranoid.

I can't speak for the Sergeant but he/she seems to be just stating facts and well said at that.

How did this thing turn into an argument? After all we're not talking about mere allegations anymore concerning Carona or the jails. It's conclusive to any sane person. Sure nobody could care less about jail operations prior to Chamberlin but that's because all we saw before were allegations. A few "bad apples"? Hopefully but you better be darn sure there are no others. That's what happens when you get some bad apples in the barrel. Without a doubt professional input is necessary to improve what nobody in their right mind could conclude is not a problem. But there is a problem and the office of the Sheriff exists to serve the public. That's the way it is. So if Jubal wants to report on the different jails, great. Nobody else thought of it and I find it informative. Could he be perceived as a little biased? Maybe but who cares. He's getting the ball rolling. Going back to what Norby says is we need somebody experienced in jail operations. That's a start and then we go from there. As an aside, I saw the list of applicants in the OCR and I must say Norby and Moorlach had it right. The guys we need are already sitting under our noses here in Orange County.

Pot Calling the Kettle Black, Deputy Dawg, OCSD thru & thru, Outsiders need not apply, OSCD dep, Another OC Deputy, Loyal2OCSD, and the many other names under which you have commented on this blog for many months:

Let's take some of the statements you have been making one at a time, shall we?

Sergeant seems calm and matter of fact while Jubal seems to be the defensive one here to me.

I supposer that's one way to look at it. Another way -- an clear-sighted way -- is I wrote a series of posts giving my impressions of the Santa Ana Jail and relaying my belief that direct supervision strikes me as the way to go (while stating the direct supervision would work in OCJ as it is currently designed -- a caveat you and Sergeant are mystifyingly overlook).

Sergeant -- whom I had previously found to be a nice, fair-minded individual -- is unable to take that as anything except criticism of the OCJ and the guys in green.

Yes, Sergeant speaks calmly -- while he condescends and puts words in my mouth and thoughts in my head that I have neither spoken nor thought.

Sergeant speaks calmly while telling me, in essence: "Thanks for the input, taxpayer. No be quiet, move along and leaving any new ideas in the suggestion box where we can more easily ignore them."

No... I think the odd thing here is how it seems to be self-serving, maybe that's not the right word... it just seems odd to be writing this long, 3 part story AND having someone else write a glowing article about the same thing. I feel like we are being force feed on how wonderful Paul's jail is. This doesn't seem genuine. It feels very much like more PR to me.

What's odd is that I have to go over this AGAIN with you.

Let's see: why did I write a long, 3-part post.

Answer: because I didn't want to write one super-duper long post. I'll let you in on a little secret: more people will read something if you split it up into three shorter posts than one really, really long post.

And if you look at the Lisa Bartlett post, I explained the genesis and timing of it for the benefit of folks like you who "feel" it isn't "genuine."

Capiche? Or do I need to explain it again?

Was this Lewis or Holder's idea? They do advertise with you, don't they?.

I'm beginning if you either can't read, can't understand what you do read, or are just an arrested adolescent in a unifor4m?

I went over this already, but maybe I need to use smaller words for your sake. No. It was not Matt or John's idea. Yes, the advertise here. So do Janet Nguyen and Neil Blais. Ask them if they think I give them positive coverage (sorry for the multi-syllabic words at the end).

Jubal, is it true that your wife use to work for John Lewis? Could there possibly be a bit of a conflict of interest here? Just wondering.

Yes, Deputy Dawg. My beautiful and intelligent wife worked for John during his entire tenure in the Senate (which you'll recall ended in 2000. In fact, that is how we met. Because as I have already mentioned any number of times on this blog, I worked for John from 1991 to 1994. He is the best boss I ever had, and we are still good friends.

My wife also worked for Lewis Consulting Group in 2002-2003 -- which you are able to do the math, was five years ago.

So the answer, OCSD thru&thru, is "no" -- there's no conflict-of-interest.

Personally, I think a better example of conflict-of-interest is say -- a Sheriff's Department that has let jail operations at a facility deteriorate so badly that an inmate is beaten to death while the deputies on duty watch TV and falsify records -- and then the OSCD leadership stiff-arms the DA so the OCSD can investigate itself and interferes with a grand jury investigation.

But what do anyone us of outside the OCSD know? You guys obviously have it handled.

This seems to smell funny to me. I am suprised since you always seem to be much more fair and impartial than this. What gives?

"What gives?" I should ask that of you, Deputy Whoeveryouare.

Two days you made this comment on Part 1 of my jail post:

"Nice try! This is obviously a publicity stunt engineered by Lewis, Holder and Walters to try to elevate Walters. Look how nice his jail is... look how crummy the old Main jail is! What a farce!"

After I explained the origin of my jail tour, you posted this comment three hours later:

"Hey Jubal, I know you are fair and have been spending time with many of the candidates for Sheriff. My questioning it as a publicity stunt was because Lewis and Holder were there with you as well. It just seemed off to me. No offense to you as I think you are fair and unbiased. Sorry if it came off that way."

Well, Loyal2OCSD, that didn't last too long, because two days later the black helicopter blades are whirling in your head again.

Can you make up your mind?

In closing, OCSD-deputy-who-comments-under-many-names:

I went on a tour of the Santa Ana Jail because I've wanted to go on a tour of the Santa Ana Jail for some time now. It wasn't a "PR stunt" engineered by John and Matt. Neither was Lisa Bartlett's post.

If you don't believe me, I could care less. Just don't wring your hands about how it doesn't "feel right." If you think I'm lying, then just say it.

And if you want to continue commenting on this blog, do not be a weasel and drag my wife into it.

Jubal... you did a great job in this article explaining the direct supervision pro's and why it works. Thank you.

The only area I wish you would address in your series of jail articles is how politics continue to obstruct justice and the fair administration of justice in Orange County. This goes for whether you have been accused of a crime legitimately or whether you have been placed under the umbrella of suspicion because political adversaries abuse authority and politics to destroy those speaking out, to punish those still believing that the United State of America is a free society.

This subject is probably one that would be considered a political hot potato! In the event you need a list of prisoners who were charged with crimes in the OC, and the differences in prosecutions and/or sentencing standards of the political versus the non-politically connected, please feel free to email me. There is no doubt that the list compiled to date would shock most still believing that justice in Orange County is NOT for sale!

The second most powerful Mexican Mafia guy was given a deal by the administration at the Santa Ana Jail. If he did not cause trouble, he was rewarded with daily visits from his family as well as meals brought to him by them. Did I mention that one of the jailers was fired for bringing in unauthorized notes from the santa ana gangs that were then given to the this very respecting individual. Yes, this was one of the best ideas that our Santa Ana jail administration had. How about that for respect!!!