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Man at MoveOn.org healthcare vigil bites off opponent's finger
By Eric Ingemunson | 09/03/09 | 02:40 AM EDT | 107 Comments
Finger spit out onto street
The wet starbursts of spattered blood dot the gray sidewalk for a distance of about 30 feet, marking the path the victim took to his car after part of his finger was bitten off and spat into the street by a protester at a MoveOn.org healthcare vigil this evening.
The unidentified victim, who was standing with a small group of people counter-protesting MoveOn.org’s vigil on the opposite side of the street, apparently left the missing part of his finger behind and drove himself to a nearby hospital to seek treatment. The body part was quickly recovered by a fellow counter-protester and delivered to the hospital where it is presumed it will be sewn back on.
I arrived on the scene at 7:20 p.m., right when both demonstrations were scheduled to begin. The “We Can’t Afford to Wait Vigil”, organized by MoveOn.org, already had drawn approximately one hundred people who gathered on the northwest corner of the intersection at Lynn and Hillcrest roads in Thousand Oaks, California. They were armed with bullhorns, glowing candles, and professionally made signs featuring pro public-option slogans.
Across the street, about 15 people carried cardboard signs with handwritten messages scrawled in black ink that criticized government-run healthcare. As I approached, I noticed several of them were talking to some Ventura County Sheriffs on the sidewalk. Here’s what I found out from speaking to several of the eyewitnesses:
About 20 minutes earlier, a man on MoveOn.org’s side of the street crossed over and shouted “Why don’t you like the public option?” Several of the counter-protesters said that they don’t want the government to run everything. The MoveOn.org man got nose to nose with a short, gray-haired counter-protester, and sneered, “You’re an idiot.”
At that point, I’m told the victim either swung at or pushed his assailant’s face away with an open hand, and his finger entered his mouth. Update (9/4/09): The victim, Bill Rice, who said he showed up to the rally to support the troops, admitted he threw the first two blows; his finger was bitten off on the second blow.
“It was a defensive strike,” said Scott Bush, who witnessed the altercation. He said the assailant approached him in an unpredictable and threatening manner.
The MoveOn.org protester then allegedly bit off the finger up to the first knuckle, and spat it into the street where it was recovered by Bush.
“I picked it up and it had a piece of gravel stuck on it,” he said. Bush rushed it to the hospital.
The attacker started back to the other side of the street, but then returned to briefly argue some more or attempt to justify what he had done before “swaggering off”, in the words of one witness. Deputies obtained a description of the suspect and searched the area but returned empty-handed.
At the end of the night, the MoveOn.org protesters had to cross the street to return to their cars; several groups of them walked carelessly into the crime scene and stepped on the spatters of blood, not hearing the deputies’ shouts to stay on the grass.
This is the second outbreak of violence at a healthcare protest I've been to in Thousand Oaks. A month ago, I witnessed a man attack some doctors that were speaking to a crowd about the perils of universal health care. In both cases, the aggressor attacked a group of people that was peacefully assembled. While these protests are still about regular Americans voicing their concerns about government takeovers, the pro-government forces have introduced an element of thuggery and ugly mob tactics. From my perspective, the violence and hate is only going in one direction.
For more information, please contact me at eric.ingemunson@redcounty.com.
Update - 7:36 AM:
Last night, the Los Angeles Times got the sides reversed and that a pro-Obama guy lost the finger. This is disputed by an eyewitness on the MoveOn.org side who wrote this on her blog:
When he gets to our side, he tells a story in one sentence: “He punched me hard, straight in the face, so I bit his finger off.”
Photos, from top to bottom:
The police shut down a portion of the street.
Sheriffs try in vain to prevent MoveOn.org members from stepping in the blood as they return to their cars
The only known picture of the assailant, taken while he was "swaggering off"
A close up of one of the many blood droplets
.jpg)
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107 Comments | Related Topics »Ventura County (CA) | National
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Comments
Two words...."Concealed Carry."
do not start a civil war
Why not? Civil war or revolution is what we need. The revolution in Paris helped getting rid of all those crooked rich fucks and different social layers. In this country you pride yourselves that you live in a democracy but you wouldn't know one if it sat on your face. Rich fucks that made money off the working class backs' need to be brought down in the dirt. Maybe then they'll get a reminder of where they came from.
As for the old fart that lost his finger, he deserved it. He probably thought he'll be spared because he was in a "good" neighborhood and cops will protect him. Well guess again grandpa. If you can't take it, don't start shit thinking that somehow somebody else will protect you.
I just had to respond to BillyBob's ignorance and total lack of social grace. His vague reference to what he suggested was democracy much more closely resembles what the rest of us would call anarchy. This is typical of the half-cocked mentality that resides on the left fringe of society, having all the answers but but being woefully uninformed. The suggestion that the "old Fart" who was viciously attacked deserved to lose his finger says a lot about the unchecked anger that these crazy liberal types have for anyone who disagrees with them. What ever happened to civil discourse? There's nothing wrong with people standing up for what they believe, especially during a time when the political establishment is trying to shove something down their throats instead of representing them the in the manner to which they avowed. These are truly some of the most frightening times that I've ever seen in my sixty years as an American citizen... may God help us all!
Bring it, Billy Bob ! You have at least 50% of the country against you and the US military. Texas will never be able to leave our great union and if they want to start a civil war, Texas will become our own Iraq. Everything will be wiped out except the oil.. A nice new man made desert...Good riddance to all of you anti-America-president-hating-brainless-morons with big guns.
I wonder how much money these bloggers are getting paid?
I bet I can look at their end of year tax reports and find that they are getting
Paid to blog for the Obama!
BillyBob, you are an idiot. Without the 'rich fucks' giving you a job, you would
probably be sitting on your porch watching the grass grow. You are probably not
smart enough to hold a job chasing carts at Wal-Mart. Why don't you start your
own business and you could be a 'rich fuck' too...but that would take initiative,
like getting out of bed before noon. Forget that, it's easier to bitch about society
and protest than to change your life.
Billy Bob,
The guy went to see what democracy is all about. Freedom of speech. Fought for many times during your lifetime. Too bad you are so angry you can't have a discussion about an issue that someone has concerns about. What are you afraid of?
The political class has already declared war on the American People. It's just that the shooting hasn't started yet. If the government backs down and turns its direction around, the shooting can be avoided. Unfortunately, I'm not optimistic about that.
The government is destroying the dollar. The destruction of the currency destroys a massive amount of wealth, creates social chaos and will lead to violence. That's just one thing this government needs to stop doing and turn around on. Do you see it doing that? I don't see any signs of that.
I count six. Fail!
They drew first blood. Let's draw the last.
You have to hate your enemy to win the war.
In this case teeth are "concealed carry"
One should keep one's fingers out of the mouth of those he is arguing with.
Especially if you are hitting or otherwise assaulting him at the time. I don't defend the person who bit the finger off, but perhaps the man who was landing his second punch when he lost a finger was not an innocent victim.
They are going to start the war for us. If you're afraid to fight, I understand. But a fight there will be.
"From my perspective, the violence and hate is only going in one direction." And yet you cover a story here involving a punch from one side and a bite from the other. How disingenuous can one be?
The only one that claimed there was a "punch" is the biter. The biter got in the old man's face ... and the old man tried to get him away with an open hand, either pushing or swinging.... not a fist.
Let me guess ... the 65-year-old went to the hospital where he was treated for free thanks to Medicare. You're welcome, grandpa.
Abolish Medicaid, Abolish Medicare, Abolish VA Hospitals -- keep government out of medicine.
"grandpa" has been paying into the system all his working life; why is he saying "thank you" to you?
More foolishly, you seem to think you've made some kind of point by invoking Medicare; sounds like you think that this is a slippery slope - once the government does ANYTHING, it should be able to do EVERYTHING.
"While these protests are still about regular Americans voicing their concerns about government takeovers, the pro-government forces have introduced an element of thuggery and ugly mob tactics. From my perspective, the violence and hate is only going in one direction."
Really? Where were you for the entire month of August? It looked to me like a lot of this ugliness can be attributed to gun toting, spittle flecked screamers who felt a great need to disrupt Town Hall meetings in a most uncivil way. Preachers calling out to their congregations and praying for Obama's demise, unbelievable! It just doesn't help for people like you, Eric, to have blinders on and continue to feed into the ugliness by making statements such as the above. You must know the impact your words have and by the way, you need to be responsible for them as well. Comments like yours above are nothing but fertilizer for the rabble that cannot control their need to impose their personal definitions of Shock and Awe on those who don't agree with them, no matter what side they are on. Shame on you for dropping them like little ugly bombs. Don't be the kind of person who sows hate and disclaims responsibility for what it reaps; God judges that kind of behavior, so be careful.
In a similar vein I feel a need to comment on the upswell in ugly commentary against Obama, such as the above comment about the AZ preacher. Red or Blue leanings don't matter, the man is our President and deserves a modicum of respect for that reason alone. Adults acting out like a rabid bunch of hormone amped teenagers running amok without any adult supervision shows just how inbred we have become. God love us Americans because the rest of the world doesn't and rightfully so. To them we look like an unstable teenaged bully that possesses some mighty big guns and that is scary. It is shameful to see that the level of discourse in this country has sunk to such a new low. We all need to grow up and start talking to one another like adults instead of letting the Orwellian Animal Farm mentality control us as if we were nothing but a bunch of manipulable zombies.
Thought provoking discussion was not in the left lexicon for the entire Bush administration, pre and post 9/11. We had 8 years of your activism and protesting which we all accepted as part of what makes this country great, even if we disagreed. Even the man you were protesting absorbed the most crass displays with honor because he understood that it goes with the job of making decisions that aren't always popular. Now, after 1 month of some heat, all I hear is whining and outrage. This is simply a situation of the left being able to dish it out, but not able to take it. What scares you the most is that you have agitated a sleeping giant. All of us "racist rednecks" who typically have better things to do, like go to a real job because we don't get paid to not work, are now standing up to the crushing weight of excessive government spending and intervention. We have always had the same rights as you, we are just now choosing to exercise it.
How dare you assume that the left do not work for a living? We pay taxes too.
You were okay with Bush and Cheney raping the treasury to fund their invented wars, but to do something to help the 18,000 people dying per year for lack of health care is too much. Shame on you and your fake "Christian" friends.
If Iraq was an invented war: then what is Obamas Afghanistan war?
Just more of the same? They are about to run a surge... Yeah, just
more of the same.....
And the rape that has occurred under the Obama administration is
Greater than all of the Presidents combined.... Sorry, Obama did that
on his own.....
As a responsible individual in debt; would my answer to take out another
loan to pay for my debt, consolidate my debt, and then re run up the
initial debt plus much more? OR, is my responsibility to tighten my
belt and pay my debt?
Umm, if you will recall, we went into Afghanistan to fight the Taliban and Bin Laden. Remember Bin Laden? The guy who planned 9/11. Who escaped after we shifted our focus to Iraq for whatever reason. So Obama's there to finish what Bush started and didn't finish. And the way to do that is to have a sufficient level of troops to accomplish the strategic and tactical goals.
And the answer to you debt question could be yes - depending on if there was a good ROI on your increased debt. Plenty of people go into huge amounts of debt to attend law school or medical school, because by doing so, they open themselves up to a much higher potential income in the future.
Umm, if you will recall, we went into Afghanistan to fight the Taliban and Bin Laden. Remember Bin Laden? The guy who planned 9/11. Who escaped after we shifted our focus to Iraq for whatever reason. So Obama's there to finish what Bush started and didn't finish. And the way to do that is to have a sufficient level of troops to accomplish the strategic and tactical goals. And the answer to you debt question could be yes - depending on if there was a good ROI on your increased debt. Plenty of people go into huge amounts of debt to attend law school or medical school, because by doing so, they open themselves up to a much higher potential income in the future.
Bush or Obama it doesn't matter I am still in Iraq. Only now I have to do my job with my hands tied behind my back, thanks hippies!!!
Yea, the left was only correct for the past 8 years... why couldn't they also be quiet!?
All the Leftist protestors that were jailed for things like wearing a 'Bush Sucks' shirt at a town hall or republican convention because it might hurt his feelings
... and when you woke up from that dream, your sheets were all wet, right?
for not replying to your comment yesterday but I was working at my very real job and did not have time to view your response until this morning. Like you, I don't get paid to not work as well and in my very real household it takes two incomes to keep everything afloat. I remember keenly what has happened over the past 8 years. I challenge you to link us all to examples of such overt hatred that was shown by a populist movement such as we see now specifically directed toward President Bush that lasted for an extended period of time prior to 9/11. You won't be able to because it didn't happen. I have no problem with you being proud of your racist redneck roots but while you hold your freak flag high and wave it with one hand you should also hold a history book in the other and do some studying. The crushing weight of excess government spending and intervention that you feel on your chest has mostly been brought about during the last 30 years which have for the most part been Republican controlled. It might also serve you well to remember that the country that Bush inherited was significantly economically in the black when he took over (from a Democratic President, I might add) and what he left for the next President was a stinking, smoldering dung heap of red. I love how that little factoid seems never to make into the discourse about how Obama is bankrupting the country. And please, before you jump all over me and label me a pinko liberal again you should know that I consider myself a history buff first; how history impacts our current events helps me decide how I will vote and who I will vote for. Thus, I do not affiliate myself with either the Republican or Democratic parties and I don't make contributions to either party as well. I just calls 'em as I sees 'em and mostly try to call out anyone who marches in lockstep with party line, Repub or Dem, especially when they are lining their pockets by doing so as Eric is. And by the way, I hope you have good health insurance, because if that crushing weight you are feeling is as bad as you make it out to be you just might need it.
Annoymous, like most of those who see Obama as the second coming of Christ, he is not. First off, respect is not automatic and even as President, it must be earned. Now I ask you, with the all the long term damage we are witnessing to America, how could anyone respect Obama? The exception being of course, those who believes whatever comes out of his mouth.
Now I don't pretend to know the mind of God, or to speak for him, but am almost sure that your assumptions are incorrect. While being right on your comment about "Judge not, less you be judged," aren't you passing judgement yourself on those who disagree with your point of view and that of Obama? Secondly, God loves America because each of us is one of his children. Does he love the rest of the world less? I think not, even those who turn their face from him. The God I know, has endless love for all mankind and it is we who make the choice to serve him, or to serve ourselves. None of us is perfect and the challenge is not to just talk the talk, but to walk the talk. Is this an easy task? Not on your life and it isn't supposed to be. All we can do is take it one day at a time and try and be the best person possible. As John Denver once sang, "Some days are diamonds and some days are stones." It is only at the end of the long road, will we know if we have measured up.
Bush thought God chose him to be President, and you thought he was sane. Look how many innocent people's blood he has on his hands -- even one mentally retarded person he put to death while Govenor of Texas. What has Obama done in the last 200 days that has made you think he's destroying the country? I'll bet you can't come up with anything Beck, Coulter, Limbaugh, Hannity and other entertainers have filled your empty skull with. No one things Obama is the second coming of Christ by the way. That's just another silly claim you fools try to make in order to strike fear into other fools like you.
It would be easier to force myself to take you seriously if you left it out. Sorry, but you not likeing people is no reason to think that Obama is capable of improving our country... or even maintaining it.
Lesson: be careful giving radicals the finger!
I will defend and fight for democracy if it comes to a civil war.
This is exactly the kind of self-fulfilling rhetoric we don't need. Chill!
Mr Medicare needs to explain how his fingers got inside another persons mouth.
I'm not a police officer but the whole "He bruised my knuckles with his nose" argeument seems a little foolish.
But then again, these are conservatives so foolish is the order of the day
Let's see, it couldn't have possibly happened this way...
Crazy pro health care guy gets in the face of 65 yo guy, nose to nose, spraying spittle on the guy's face. 65 yo guy tries to push him away. Who's the agressor then? Bottom line, even if the 65er' finger slid into the guy's mouth as he pushed him away, what kind of animal actually bites down on another human. Oh yeah, Mike Tyson did. Debate is fine. Animals? Please stay home.
In my America a person is allowed to yell in someone's face (it's called free speech, ever hear of it?) but the minute either party reaches out to touch the other, that's when an assault occurs. Looks to me like the 65 year-old started the assault by trying to push the other guy away, then the other guy reacted (stupidly, I might add) by biting the guy's finger off. But I was always taught that if someone is trying to provoke me by yelling in my face, I should just "...turn the other cheek...". What ever happened to that? Oh yeah, I forgot, you people just call yourself christians, you haven't actually read the bible or studied the religion or anything...that would require actual intellectual effort. It's easier to just get your morals from Faux News. (Let me translate that for you repubs..."Faux" means "fake" in French). And what's with all these anti-reform people being Medicare recipients? Don't they realize that they are receiving the very Government-run healthcare that they are so afraid of? Looks like it worked pretty well for this guy, he ran right to the hospital and his finger is now re-attached. Wonder how long he'd still be waiting if he had private insurance? I have private insurance and have been waiting over two months for an MRI to check out a lump on my neck...that's the great current healthcare system you are all so desperate to keep? Please!!!
"In my America a person is allowed to yell in someone's face (it's called free speech, ever hear of it?)"
Actually, the free speech of which you post is a restriction upon our Federal Government, specifically that Amendment which forbids Congress to enact any law that prohibits your free exercise thereof.
"but the minute either party reaches out to touch the other, that's when an assault occurs"
Another misconception. Assault occurs precisely at the time that one feels their safety is threatened by another individual. Battery is actually the event of either party reaching out to touch the other.
It looks like Obama`s thug started this altercation by assaulting an old man.
I guarantee you that if I ever find one of you leftists screaming into my face as the spittle flies from your mouth, I`ll push your head back too. It`s not smart to back people into a corner and you leftists need to learn this real quick.
In Criminal Law an assault is defined as an attempt to commit battery, requiring the specific intent to cause physical injury Black's Law Dictionary[1]
Blacks law Dictionary is not that widely used anymore!
And, there are also law based on the belief or presumption that
someone intends to harm you......
Get a clue and let me know when you have passed the bar!
The pro healthcare person went over to the anti healthcare side after the 65 year old harassed a women giving out pro health flyers. There was a verbal exchange then the 65 year old (Rice) punched the pro healthcare guy (which he admitted to doing). Anything that happened after Rice punched the other person is self defense. So Rice was a tough guy who lost his finger via his own belligerance and got it taken care of on the government dime.
The same type of thing happened in Miami. A 65 year old pro health care advocate was punched after a verbal exchange with a anti healthcare advocate. The anti healthcare advacate was arrested.
"Anything that happened after Rice punched the other person is self defense."
Really? So it's okay to just pull out a gun and shoot the other person? There are limits in most states to self-defense.
But my biggest question is where the police were during all this; aren't they supposed to have a presence at protests to keep exactly this sort of thing from happening? Seems that they were pretty inadequate this time, from not catching or identifying the guy to utterly failing to keep the crime scene intact.
First, you sure are running with a lot of assumptions, aren't you? You have no idea how it all actually happened.
Second, biting someone's finger off is pretty extreme. It would take an awful lot to justify that kind of action.
Third, I have health care and when I needed an MRI two years ago, I had it done within two hours. Your story and mine both mean a whole lot of nothing in a larger debate.
And, lastly, your assumption about any of us and our morals is just idiotic. What our religious backgrounds might be, what gods we choose to believe in (or not believe in), and how we express our religious beliefs and disbeliefs has precisely nothing to do with the debate on how America's health care problems should be solved.
So, really, all you've given us is a whole lot of noise and judgement without anything resembling an argument or a thought.
You might want to do something about that.
And my name is Patricia, not Patty. Who are you to assume you can use a nickname for me?
LOL Patty......I have private insurance and I never have to wait. Perhaps you should be more aggressive (Like you are on this string) and call your insurance company! Jeez you have to take responsiblity for yourself....and with how this government runs everything else do you REALLY believe that you would not have to wait even longer on a gov healthcare system? Look at what they did to the cash for clunkers program, many dealers are out hundreds of thousands of dollars because the Gov you want to run our healthcare still has not paid them....and that would not even be a fraction of the work involved here.
BTW, the first amendement does not give you the right to get in someones face nose to nose, and scream and spittle and spew your beliefs on them.
You bet your ass if that happened to me I would have flat out decked the guy, and I am a girl!
Signed a non christian, believe in a higher power republican!
Let's see, it couldn't have possibly happened this way...
Crazy pro health care guy gets in the face of 65 yo guy, nose to nose, spraying spittle on the guy's face. 65 yo guy tries to push him away. Who's the agressor then? Bottom line, even if the 65er' finger slid into the guy's mouth as he pushed him away, what kind of animal actually bites down on another human. Oh yeah, Mike Tyson did. Debate is fine. Animals? Please stay home.
The fact is, that the 65 year old punched the other guy.
Obamacare people are crazy nuts. Seriously.
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